How to immediately improve your hiring process.

Does your employee recruitment style need to change? In this NEW episode of the Healthy Church Growth podcast, hosts Mike Mage and Justin Price, founder of Vers Creative, discuss how to master the art of recruiting exceptional talent. 

On Instagram:  @Mikemage @techjustinrp @vers_creative


Transcriptions:

Mike Mage
Welcome to the healthy church growth podcast. We are so glad that you are joining us today for this podcast. And today, it’s going to look a little different, it’s gonna feel a little different. And I’m gonna get into that here in a minute. But before we do, I just want to again, say thank you so much for sharing, for subscribing for liking for being a part of this podcast in this community, it is so cool to see people reach out and to see people comment and to see people really engaged with what we’re trying to do here with healthy church growth and be a part of this journey as we tried to figure out what in the world does healthy church growth actually look like? And today with me, as always, is our co host, Justin, Justin, how’s it going, man?

Justin Price
It is going so great, Mike. I mean, we finally broke 75 degrees here in Florida, which just feels so incredible. Yes, yeah. Today, I love it when it’s sunny, and cool.

Mike Mage
It’s amazing. Well, and and yeah, I I think it comes into before we record it, but if heaven has a temperature, it’s going to be around 65 to 70 degrees and sunny out. And I don’t know a lot of people that would disagree with me on that. But it’s amazing here in Florida, as of November 2.

Justin Price
It’s incredible. It is amazing. Yeah, it was so funny. I was telling my staff to go out and breathe some fresh air today. Yeah, I got out. I got some very frustrated Toledo-ins. Even like a little eye roll from Buffalo and one from North Carolina who always like, shut up. Yeah. And don’t tell us to go outside, you jerk.

Mike Mage
Well, and this is, you know, May through probably October, honestly, is pretty terrible in Florida. And you know, but it’s almost like you invest in those months so that we can reap the benefit when it comes to November through like, especially like March or April? Because there’s really no other place to be. I mean, it’s it feels most of the time. It feels so good out.

Justin Price
Yeah, I mean, there is a reason why everybody from the great white out here. We have all these snowbirds in our population increases by two to three. Yeah, but there is a little hack for those listeners. There’s a little life hack that I live by. And that is that October. And November are secret month that we locals that are aware and wise enough. When for smart enough, we live it up. And it’s bright before all the snowbirds are fully in season and when the weather is still nice enough. So you get in September and post summer. Yep, hot days at the beach to yourself. Yeah. And then any resort. And any cool like, you know, Busch Gardens, like any amusement parks, all of the touristy things that are like 10 times longer weights and obnoxious during spring break in the typical, like break times, just, you know, you got to get creative with your schedule and switch things around a little bit. And so if you are thinking about visiting Florida, and maybe you could even apply this to other warm weather states. Think about getting creative and stop, like just sticking to the Christmas and Spring Break time and see them on summer seasons just Yeah, get your kids out of school. It’s not responsible. I can say that with a first grader. There you go see exactly take the week. Yeah,

Mike Mage
executive, at some point, you got to live life. And folks, that is a free tip that we were talking about today. That’s a free tip. You even know you were getting that today.

Justin Price
We’ve got no segue for that. So let’s just jump into it. You know,

Mike Mage
Let’s jump into it. Okay, so what I mentioned the beginning, we wanted to try and do something a little different, Justin and I did. And it’s something that I hear about a lot from other worship leaders from other people in ministry is how do you find people I literally, I just had a phone call the last week from the pastor who’s new to the area. And you know, they’re from a town over. And you know, they called me and said, I don’t I don’t want to take any of your people, which I thought was very nice. But I’m new to this town. I’m new to the city. What’s even like, what do I look for? When I’m trying to recruit people, whether it’s whether you have some money as a church to hire somebody, maybe it’s part time, maybe it’s full time or even just simply volunteers. And so I was talking with Justin and we’re like, maybe we should do like a couple part series and what does it look like to hire people and recruit people? What does it look like to maybe ask somebody to not be a part of your team anymore? Whether it be firing or, you know, just saying now’s not the right time? Or you know, and then maybe, you know, some third part, whoever knows that is whatever this goes. So today, we’re going to sort of go lightning round, Justin and I both bought three really great points. And we’re gonna sort of just ping pong back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. So Justin, I think it’s great if you would lead off age before beauty, right?

Justin Price
Oh, man, you’re gonna set the bar really high. I’m gonna start talking really Fast, here we go, you’re ready for the lightning round

Mike Mage
Lightning round, we need

Justin Price
Here we go. So anybody who has ever applied to work with me, I have one objective in the interview process it is to talk them out of the job, I really want to set up the expectations for the worst case scenario of what I imagine could frustrate, you could burn you out, and could make it so that you find out maybe six months, maybe a year into the job, that it’s not the right job for you. A lot of people feel like that’s not the way that they would maybe take an interview process. But the thing that I have found is I’m a pretty good sales guy. And I can convince a lot of people to come and work with me. And then they find out six months later, like this stuff that I left out, is a deal breaker for them. And so they end up finding another job or they decide to go somewhere else or whatever. And that that’s always worked out perfectly fine. However, I invest a ton of time and money into staffing them, getting them plugged in onboarding them, getting them into the culture, even like for us, we have a lot of clients of bringing it up to all of the clients and bringing them up to speed with all the clients is a big deal. And so you when you consider what it really costs to hire somebody, it’s about 10 to 20 grand whether to use a recruiter actually pay somebody to find them. Or you just look at the resources from your team to bring somebody up to full speed, you’re looking at like 10 to 20 grand worth of time, hours cost whatever. Yeah. And so I want to talk people out of the job, make sure that when I put that 10 to 20 grand in somebody, it’s the right fit for the long term. And, you know, what I’ve also found is usually when it is the right fit, the things I’m saying that will turn off most people turn them on. It’s not that it could just sometimes be the season of life. So one of the things that I often talk about is like how hard this job is challenging it is. And I had a guy I was interviewing the other day, and he just said he’s like, I’m actually ready for a challenge. I’ve been in a season of my life where it hasn’t been that challenging. And I found myself getting bored and distracted doing a lot of other projects. So that’s it, talk people out of it. And you’ll find that when they get excited about you talking them out of it. That’s a good sign. It’s a really great sign early on. So yeah, there you go. Mike, what you got what? I did it three minutes.

Mike Mage
Under three minutes. That was incredible.

Justin Price
Okay, I’ll try to slow down a little bit.

Mike Mage
Well, real quick to just just a tag on that. Since we have like a tiny bit of time. It’s like, this is like the presidential debates. You know, I get to respond. Right? I get to respond. Okay.

Justin Price
Oh, yeah, that’s good. We should build in response time. Yeah, at least a minute.

Mike Mage
Right? I love Thank you. I love that. You try to talk people out of it. It’s what happened to me when I got to the church that I’m working out, or wikinut, the the executive director that I interviewed with, he kept like trying to say bad things. He’s like, Well, you know, we’re, we’re not we got our problems and everything. But you know, if you can if if the person that you’re interviewing turns it around and uses it as an opportunity, that’s the type of person that you want. Does. That’s incredible.

Justin Price
So yeah, absolutely.

Mike Mage
Okay, so first thing I want to say before I get started and do my number one, this is my preamble is what you do in your church, in your ministry in your organization, is not the health of your culture. It’s not what you do. It’s who you are. That is the actual health of your culture. And so recruiting is the one of the most important things that you can do, whether it’s a volunteer, or a staff member, we all know that. Just like Justin said, it costs money. If you don’t hire and recruit correctly, it costs money. Absolutely. And Okay, so the first thing and this is something if you listen to our past podcasts, err, this actually talked about a lot as well. But it’s a huge thing for me, is humility. Humility is easily the most attractive quality that someone on your team can have. humble people are teachable people, they are self aware, they understand their surroundings, they understand when you know, they should talk, they understand what they probably shouldn’t talk, they understand when they should push them to stand when they shouldn’t push, there is a level of it. For example, no one gets offended by a humble person adjusting Can you think of a time you have been offended by a humble person?

Justin Price
No, never. Yeah,

Mike Mage
But and even in a humble person can can bring up something that might be semi like offensive, and when they really have to push the boundary or push the envelope a little bit. And they’re able to bring it up in a way that does not get people’s feathers ruffled to the point where they’re not able to engage in a topic. And that’s, that’s what I want to so bad. I’m not looking for people to do a specific job when I when I find a bass player, when I find a drummer, when I find a singer, I’m not looking for them to do that specific job I need them to be there is some level of competency obviously we all need to have going into like some sort of specialized role, but I’m not looking for them to just do that. I’m looking for them to be leaders and leaders are people who serve and ultimately you need humility to do that. So number one quality about like, I want someone to walk into our green room and say, holy cow. This is a bunch of humble people.

Justin Price
Yeah. So my response to that, Mike, is that you’re that you’re the most humble.

Mike Mage
Thank you. I have that tattooed on me. Yeah, it’s right. It’s right on my chest. Right across my chest. I’m the most humble. Yeah.

Justin Price
Yeah, Mike actually got a tattoo of a piece of a slice of pie on his on his bicep. And just so that people would ask him, what is that? And he’s like, Oh, it’s my humble pie.

Mike Mage
That’s my humble pie. Yeah,

Justin Price
Yeah. I don’t want to put humble on there. Because I want to be able to tell people

Mike Mage
What it’s one of the things I work on my bicep so much I kiss my bicep is taken, taken a bite of humble pie. Yes.

Justin Price
I so this is really, my number two is eight as a great one, by the way, Mike, thank you. I wish I could come up with topics like that. But you’re, you’re you’re phenomenal. And I’m, this is kind of a tag on to this. So one of the things we look for, we always say that that Pro, the difference between an amateur and a professional is that a professional knows what they don’t know. And an amateur doesn’t yet know what they don’t know. And so the amateur will oftentimes assume that they’ve got something under control that they don’t have. The there’s a I’m not even gonna sidetrack because we’re on a lightning round. But so so the way that this goes oftentimes is we’ll say, Okay, so here’s the project. It’s really hard. Here’s the team. These guys are really high caliber, you know, what, what do you bring to the team? Or what do you think are going to be some of the challenges? And as we start to dig into these questions, I mean, I fire pretty hard in these interviews, because I just want to get to the meat, right. And so when I asked those kind of like hard hitting questions, trying to set up them to respond with expectations, knowing that they’re trying to leave a good impression. So I need a little bit of EQ skills here a little bit of like, emotional intelligence. Yep. I want them to somehow turn this answer into, well, hey, I don’t know that I’m like the best. But I know that I’m willing to do whatever it takes to figure it out. I know that I won’t give up on it. I know that like, I’m I based on this experience. This is what I do know. And so I can actually figure out a couple of things that even though again, I don’t know how exactly I would solve that, those kinds of answers are the things I’m looking for out of a really strong leader, that’s not necessarily as important for somebody who’s like lower in the organization, who’s an entry level person. In fact, I would always say that’s, that’s one of the biggest tells, as far as how much experience you have is if you, the more you can say, I don’t know, the more that you know, you don’t know, I will kind of say, Okay, well, that’s probably, uh, you’re getting yourself an extra 10 grand in your salary pay? With every answer that you say, I don’t know. Yeah, that verse. Yeah. And so we always just say, like, you know, that’s, that’s something that we look for. And when people come in, it’s funny, because that’s, it’s kind of humble. Um, but it’s also humility, out of experience to say, like, I have been humbled by these projects that I assumed I knew all the answers to or I had, it was gonna have it figured out. And it’s like, and I actually just quoted this massive project. It’s this this, like, this account could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars, Mike, I’ve never done anything like this before. I’ve never, I’ve never, never quoted out for a project that has this much potential is software that’s applicable, it’ll change the world if it’s done, right. It’s something it’s so exciting. And I couldn’t even give them a number on what it would take. Because I’ve never done anything like it. And I was, I was kind of thinking back on like, I did give him a number on marketing things. I didn’t give him a number on some strategic launch things and some, you know, initial launch things and all that and first drafts and things like that. But I was like, if I came in here and tried to give you a number on what it’s going to truly take to bring this thing to market. I would be, I’d be lying. I just don’t know. And I’ve made enough mistakes. And I felt that pain, where it’s not worth trying to sell him on a number or sell that person that to number until we’re further down the line. We don’t know a whole lot more. So yeah. That’s it number two is looking for people who know what they don’t know.

Mike Mage
Yeah. Well, I think that that’s great. I have you watched Ted lassa. Yet, Justin, this show and

Justin Price
Have I loved every Sunday.

Mike Mage
Oh my god. So healthy church growth audience, you need to after this podcast after you’re done with this, and you share it with your friends, and you share with your family and your church members. You need to then go and sign up for Apple TV and watch Ted lasso

Justin Price
rifle TV plus for sure.

Mike Mage
Yeah. So there is this moment and I won’t give it away for people who haven’t seen it. But there’s this moment. And like towards the end of the season, where he says this thing about how people are have always doubted him in his life. And it’s there’s this quote that he saw from a poet, I think it was Walt Whitman, I can’t remember but it just said, Be curious, not judgmental. And I think that sort of that sort of, you know, can sum that up a little Like you want curious people, and that makes sense.

Justin Price
Yeah. I guess you know, the more specific thing in the creative realm, Mike would be that arrogance will make you completely fail. Because this stuff, whether it’s like ministry, or business, creative stuff, yeah, coming into it arrogating in an arrogant way it will, it will set you up to fail. It’s like coming in with blinders on. So

Mike Mage
I just got goosebumps. I’m not kidding. Like, I literally just got goosebumps.

Justin Price
That’s great. Because it was for

Mike Mage
Yeah. All right. Well, this, this is this is cool. I’m a dummy. Because we were going over this beforehand. I was like, Oh, you know, these are kind of separate. But all of these they dovetail into each other a little, hopefully, as well, especially as we’re talking them through a little bit more. So what’s your number two. So number two, is what so first one is humility. And that kind of goes with what you were talking about to my second thing is passion or drive. And like, I know that that sounds I know that that sounds really stupid. Because like, Oh, yeah, of course, like, obviously want someone with passion or drive. But it is not as easy as you think it is. Because some people are really good at the beginning of letting you know how you know motivated they are, how driven they are and all that kind of stuff. Because that they’ve you know, they’ve gotten to a certain point. But this this passion, this drive is intentionality. That’s what you really want. And if you can combine both passion or drive, and humility, you have someone who is like the absolute best advocate for your team, for your mission for your church, your ministry, your organization, whatever, like it will be someone who is literally a rock star. And again, I don’t want someone who’s just going to do a specific job, they come they do the job, and then they leave. I want people who are on fire who are who are dying to be a part of something.

Justin Price
So is it What’s a tangible way you look for that mic? Sorry to cut you off?

Mike Mage
No, that’s fine. It is its enthusiasm. It’s someone who chooses joy. It’s someone who chooses optimism over negativity, it’s someone who is kind of like you were saying for that first one is looking for the opportunity, not just for the difficulty. And, and those are, those are honestly, those are very tangible things. So and, and and again, those do not come up based on just on one interview, that’s a relationship thing that is that as a leader, you know, as someone who is in charge of other people, it is my job to get to know my people. And, and I you can see those things after you know, maybe not hours, but after days, after you know, weeks, you are able to see those things. And it goes go, go go for

Justin Price
now. Yeah, so I do have one way that you can check that. Yeah. And that is that this was a somebody stole from Andy Stanley. Yeah. northpointe. And he, he says in all of his interviews, he doesn’t look at any of the resumes, he just asked people what they’ve done. Yep. And so he goes, like, if you’ve only done portfolio work for your graduate or for your, your previous employer, if you’ve had no side hustle, if you’ve only done like the status quo of what is required for your job or school. He’s like, I won’t even take that interview, like past that conversation. So it’s like, it’s funny, but it’s true. He’s like, passion and drive. Mike, what I love about is like you’re very sensitive and tuned into the heart, into your you were talking about, like, the passion and drive comes from those from those conversations. But I’m always looking for these, like tangible. Yeah, and, and so I literally had an interview for a great person, she had a ton of passion and drive with what she was saying she’s passionate, she was a great fit for us culturally. And I believe she could be very, very good, good, do a very good job. But she didn’t have that anything like anything. And I was like, just like you might be a good fit. But until you go do some work, you’re not paid for. Totally. That’s passion, right? For me, I worked 10 years of side hustles like running recording studios, filming things, making logos for things that were nothing. Because I had that drive and passion. I couldn’t sit at home and watch Netflix as as good as Ted lassa is it’s not on Netflix. I couldn’t just sit at home and watch Netflix, I had to do things. And so those are the kind of people I’m looking for. And I oftentimes applaud staff members who have side hustles. I’m interviewing another person who has built like multiple e commerce platforms and sold a lot of different things on Instagram over the last few years, and I was like, I’m calling you, because I’ve watched you build your own things on the side while you’re working in other places. That’s the kind of people I want on my team. You can still build things on the side. I’m not calling you because I’m trying to squeeze you for all those hours. I just want somebody who’s not going to be content. So yep, sorry, Mike. I went totally on yours.

Mike Mage
No. Well, I just think that that’s the drive because yes, passion. And so that’s why I kind of had those two words. There is passion You know, you can you can see passion and whatever, but it’s the drive, you know, that’s that the underlying there’s got to be a motor there, there has to be some sort of engine that is propelling that thing forward. Because especially I, and I don’t know if you see this, Justin, but I have seen especially in the creative world, there are so many people who have a passion I’m doing air quotes because no one can see this under an air. So many people have a passion for creative things. They want to be a creative director, they want to create things, they have a passion for things. They want to be a tastemaker, whatever that means. But they have no drive to actually just you just got to start doing something man, you got to go. And, and that’s how you get better. That’s that’s how you get. It’s how you get noticed that that’s what you are. But whatever. That’s that’s what I’m looking for in my in my team. Like, I want people who are in this again, this is for volunteers, but also for hires. I want people who are driven and like you were saying, who are not going to be complacent. For you know, the way we’ve always done things, which is like the killer line of all church ministry. So yeah,

Justin Price
Oh man. Yeah. Anybody who says that word, just it, they get kind of erased from the conversation?

Mike Mage
Immediately. Yes. Alright, you go Yeah,

Justin Price
I would do want to bounce one more thing on that go was so good. And I’m gonna steal it into my three minutes for this. But Okay. Um, you said something that was like, very, very interesting for me. And that was that, um, I want to reiterate a point that I probably overstate, but ideas are cheap, in passion, passion that is shown in ideas, and conversation. And interest is not worth a hill of beans. Hmm. Even as an art director, even as somebody who’s whose job is to come up with ideas based on knowledge, of art history, and of concept, that person’s job still needs to have execution inside of it. And so if you’re talking about idea versus execution, there’s passion and drive, right? Um, you guys, we can get really, really misled by somebody who’s like, I’m so passionate about film. I love watching movies. Yeah, I know, I’ve listened to every podcast of every film thing there ever was, you know, and I’m an aspiring dp, I’m going to be a dp a great dp one day. And I believe that I believe that they believe that, you know, like, it sucks so much when I meet somebody like that. And I go, sweet man, show me the thing that you have done first, like, well, I’m waiting to get I’m waiting to get an opportunity to do it. Yeah. If they’re, if what they are, and even if they don’t say those words, right? If their answer is I don’t have anything right now that I’m really can show you or that you know, but I’m working on some things. I have some ideas, I have some scripts. I’m like, Hey, man, good luck, like Call me when you and I’ll usually try to say this out of love. But it’ll be like, paid, call me back. Like I want to see when that thing has become a thing. And maybe I might be the person to like, you know, cause them to actually put some action. But I will usually tell them, I was like, hey, any, any creative director or any creative leader will not consider you as even a viable option if you haven’t done something because, you know, I remember even when I was in middle school, I was making music videos with a VHS camera for my friend’s dad’s VHS camera, and they sucked. And then in high school, I made more music videos, that sucked so bad, I had fun doing them, but they sucked. And I still had them as my like, experience, you know, and, and so anyways, that’s a total silence. So here’s my last one. And I’m just gonna,

I’m gonna say this is maybe a little more unique to the creative agency world than it is quite to the church. I’m gonna try to do this in 30 seconds, because I’ve talked so much. And it is this, um, I look for people who say they want to join our team, because they’re looking for an opportunity to do better work. And it’s so funny because this is really pretty much just Mike’s passion drive. Um, what I have found as my own as as a solo entrepreneur and as like a solo creative is that you are highly limited. You can be very self fulfilling, but you’re highly limited to the quantity and the quality in which one person can produce Yep, as an artist. But if you are really excited about the creative work, the actual reps of being creative, having another creative person in your team to bounce off of to push you forward and not stall you up can move you so much faster, and can compliment you so much better. Yeah, um, you know, even the best creatives in the world had other people on their teams, whether they were recognized or not. elton john wrote the most amount of number one hits in a row and held the radio number one hits for the longest amount of time and the second that he started writing without his writing partner. He Cuz albums, like bombed. And then he came back to that writing partner, and he brought some more hits. And it’s just so funny to meet it for us to be so arrogant as artists to think like, but yet, but we can do it on ourselves because we’re really totally. And we really got this all together. And so I’m looking for people who want to push for better work and who have been saying like, I know I’ve got something inside of me, and I’ve been doing it and here’s my drive. And here’s my portfolio. But like, it’s just not enough with me on my own. And or I need another person on top of me, Mike, my boss is happy with my best. Yeah, but I know I’ve got another level. Yeah. And that idea of pushing my own personal boundaries is something that if they do not say it anywhere in the interview process, I cannot approve, like, I cannot move them forward from my interview time. And so the staff knows when they’re when they’re interviewing people as well. If that’s not something that that is a value that people are looking for, when they’re looking at our agency, then we just we turn them away, because the reality is, is there is no arrival point there. It is a journey, and you’re always pushing. And if you’re not looking to push, like if you’re not looking to take the next step to level up in any way. Sometimes it’s a big step. And sometimes it’s just a growth step like a small little thing. Yeah. But if you’re not looking for that kind of energy, you will get burnt out on a team of high performers, this team that that I work with, like big kick my butt all the time. Yep, yep. Because they’re phenomenal. And they’re always pushing each other. Yeah. And bouncing off of each other in a way that elevates it so much faster. So it’s better results. Yeah. And so I took more than my 30, because I got really passionate about this, but I’m looking, you know, when we’re recruiting, the best hires are people who are like, I, I know, I can do better work working with your team, with this team of people that you you have on your staff. And so that’s a huge, huge thing for me.

Mike Mage
Well, it’s so funny. I mean, like, there is a moment where because I think you’re right, if you get to your limit, you get to where and this happened to me is this happened to me in ministry, this happened to me in real estate just recently, where it was like, I have reached my end, you know, like, I have reached the ceiling that I can with this organization, or with this church, or whatever, like I have to, you know, that’s a natural, that’s a natural point that a lot of people get to, and sometimes it’s literally, you know, maybe it’s for you as a leader or whatever, sometimes that is sort of like the the writing on the wall for you to maybe go find somewhere else. But you’re right, it is, it’s, it’s really great to have people and be like I need I want to team up with you to make something bigger and better happen, which, you know, if you’ve been following along with what we’ve been saying this whole time, throughout all the podcasts that they held the church growth, like that’s what we’re called to do is bigger and better things than we could even think or imagine, that God has for us so and Justin that my third point sort of dovetails really nicely again, with kind of what you were saying. And this is something I’m probably you probably would want to look for more in someone you’re hiring. So whether it’s again, part time, maybe you have money for a full time person, I don’t know, depending on wherever you’re at. But this is probably something more for a higher than a volunteer, even though I have several volunteers on my team that that have this quality, but it’s the quality of forward thinking. So it’s of it’s a lot of the times we think of our volunteers as very operational. So if you’re looking at you know, like the triangle of, you know, organizations or whatever, you have your operational, you have your managerial, which is like your middle management in the strategic, which is your executive level, whatever, a lot of us look at our volunteers is strictly operational, only come in to do one job, all that kind of thing. Eternity. Yeah, exactly. And you have you have somebody who you need somebody who can take a just a step, just one glance up off of the ground off of the weeds that they’re in, to look up at around them, and to think about what’s ahead of them, to maybe to maybe get some context about what’s happening so that they can make informed decisions, have informed conversations about whatever, you know, the next step might be, even if it’s a tiny thing, it’s that forward progress that you really, really want. And again, that helps to empower people that helps to encourage people that helps people not say so, you know, not get so stagnant in what they’re doing. And really, you know, as a leader, you know, one thing that I’m really looking for is that, you know, and again, all these other things that we’ve been talking about, you know, viewing it as an opportunity, having that drive, having that passion, having humility, all that kind of stuff, all of this all plays in together so and you know, I, I know a lot of you out there thinking like, Well, how do you find this? How do you get this? How do you and it’s, it’s through relationships. I mean, Justin, you’ve talked about a lot of these people that you are hiring, you know them, you know, like you have done the hard work, you’ve put the hard work in into creating a network, even personally of friends and people that you’ve worked Before whether it’s through church or whether it’s through other creative endeavors, but you know, these people, and, you know, that’s, that’s the first thing. And so maybe there’s somebody on your volunteer worship team that is ready to take a next step into some sort of paid capacity, whether it be super small, or you know, like just empowering a volunteer to maybe be a little more forward thinking someone who’s passionate and humble can can really take up the mantle to be like your lead volunteer. And, you know, like, my staff here at the church that I work at, is literally all the all of my staff members were once a volunteer first, I don’t hire outside. So I have seven people right now, no, six people, no 6565, or six people, depending on how you count them. Five or six people that are on staff, technically, with the worship department that we’re all on the on the team first as volunteers true. And like, it is not that that’s how we raise up people. And really like, that is a sustainable way to do things. Because you create a pipeline and you create, you know, like a deeper level of engagement for these people who really do feel like God might be calling them to something more. And if we didn’t have an opportunity for them, then they would probably leave to go to another church or to wherever the opportunity is calling them. So I don’t know if you have anything to say to that. But

Justin Price
I do. I think it’s phenomenal. I would just validate, you know, I’ve applied for positions at Mike’s church multiple times. Now I keep getting rejected because I have not been volunteering. So if I feel God’s calling me, I’m gonna start by volunteering.

Mike Mage
We have plenty of spots open for you, Justin, the doors always open. Yeah.

Justin Price
Is there a spot for door opener?

Mike Mage
Absolutely. Always.

Justin Price
Yeah, just yeah, that’s about all I’m qualified for. But so a two two little practical things. A lot of people are like, I don’t know, the right people for this position. So before you say that, I would just encourage you to put post it out on your personal social media feeds, and post the type of things that you dream of being able to work with. So I’m looking so a lot of times, you don’t know, because you’ve not ever dreamed about the potential perfect person, man. And so now, like we used to pay for, like LinkedIn ads, and we used to pay for different recruiters. And so now always start with is like, staff members posting the job position. And it has been incredibly successful. Our staff members alone, brought in 130 something applications to our last position now a couple weeks ago. So I’m, like, qualified applications, like great applications. And I read every single one of them and looked at every single portfolio I put in the time, because it’s worth it. Yeah, you’re talking about the most important Mike, as you said earlier, this is this is the most important part of your organization. Culture is hiring right. And so, um, it’s not worth, it’s not worth skipping the time. Now. It’s like, I was told a long time ago from a coach like hay, choosing, you’re choosing to say no to things today for a later Yes. Or you’re choosing to say yes, I’m going to work on this thing now, like the hard choice today for an easier later. Yeah, right. This is that is such a good application to hiring. So practical step right here, make sure you really think through who the right person is for this new dream who that best person could be. And you talk about it to your friends, you talk about it to your network, you call friends who are more networked in you do not just post one Facebook post and say, Well, I tried, you know, I’m busy, I tried. I don’t have time, you don’t have time to hire the wrong person or to pull from the small pool, to grab people out of a small pond, you need to open it up. There’s people all over the country who’d be willing to relocate. So we’d be willing to work remote, who’d be willing to do whatever your circumstance is. And so this isn’t mind blowing stuff here. But for some of you guys who are still maybe like young leaders and don’t have good mentoring, this is like a, this is a foundational thing you need to think through, it’s your responsibility to try to find everybody you possibly can reach with your message of the opportunity, you have to be a part of what God is doing in your circle of influence. Yeah. So that that is a very, very practical tool that I just I’d love for you guys to take away with.

Mike Mage
Hmm, it’s so good. Well, this is

Justin Price
So the second step of that, Mike, I’m gonna take this, okay. The second step is a call everybody you possibly can call. So if you’ve not made 10 calls, even so it’s not always that the person you’re calling is the right person. Don’t think that way. Think about the person you’re calling might know the right person or might know somebody who knows the right person, right? And you just have to ask you never get those results without actually making the ask so

Mike Mage
Well, what’s crazy, too is this is the last podcast you and I did together was you’re just saying, you know, we need to take inspiration from outside of the church from other organizations like we need to totally leave the church because it does Foreign in the church mindset for me to call people. But so businesses do all the time. All the time, literally just getting on the phone. I mean, right now we’re in the middle of election season, and I get phone calls all the time. You know, and like it just that’s how that’s it’s still a way that people do things. So you actually have to talk to people. Yeah. Well, this, this has been incredible. It’s been, it’s been super fun for me, I, I am learning just as much from you, as I hope maybe someone in our audience is learning as well. And, you know, for you, our audience at the healthy church growth podcast, we would love not just for you to share this because obviously, you know, we want you to do that too. But if you know when this podcast comes out, if you know, you can tag us with something that says what’s what’s one of your tips that you’re looking for when you’re looking to hire or recruit on that? And we can we can create a network of suggestions and tips for for everybody who is because seriously, it’s the most common question I get asked from other worship leaders and pastors of how do I get? How do I recruit a team? So thank you so much for listening here on the healthy church growth podcast where we believe that healthy things grow and growth means life.