Getting Rid of Sacred Cows in Church with CRTV Church founder Nik Goodner.

Is it time to rethink just about everything we do in ministry? Is the Sunday morning service a sacred cow that we need to get rid of? On this NEW episode of the Healthy Church Growth podcast, we interview CTRV Church founder Nik Goodner (@nikgoodner) about this and many other topics.

Nik Goodner Instagram @nikgoodner

CRTV Church Instagram @crtvchurch

Resources – https://www.sundaysocial.tv/ 


Transcriptions:

Mike Mage
Welcome to the healthy church growth podcast.

Well, welcome to the healthy church growth podcast where we believe that healthy things grow and growth means life. I am one of your hosts, Mike my age. And we have absolutely loved having these conversations with you, with our audience with these guests that we’ve been having on just really being able to interact with you and how we can see churches grow in a healthy way. And before we dive into this intro, I really just want to let you know that we would absolutely love for you to subscribe and share and rate this podcast not so much for just you know, to see the podcast grow, but we really want to interact with you, our audience, and have conversations with you and engage with you in any way that we can. And by subscribing and by sharing and by rating this podcast. It’s a way for These conversations to get in front of more people so that we can all together be on this journey of what it looks like to grow in a healthy way. Joining me today for this intro and for the interview that we had here in a minute is Justin price. And Justin, we had an insane conversation with Nik Goodner and talked about some really crazy stuff. It’s pretty incredible.

Justin Price
What’s up, Mike, we did have an insane conversation. And it does mean the world to us when you guys subscribe, and like and follow and engage probably more than anything is engaged in the conversations we’ve been able to have with you all. In the last two months for me, I think have made this podcast worth all the work, really like a light in the darkness has just been connecting authentically with people and you know being in a community. building a community has been absolutely a huge reward and an honor So jumping into the Nik Goodner conversation like, man, I would say, Jesus, let’s get like some notepads out right now and be prepared to write some things down that are probably gonna, gonna feel challenging.

Mike Mage
I mean, he is I know what’s funny after following for those of you that don’t know, Nik Goodner, he is the, I guess he started this thing called creative church, which is a community online and you can find it at CR TV church, on Instagram and on Facebook, and it’s just this community of creative leaders in the church and to following him. He is actually an eight on the enneagram so he is your classic challenge. So true. Yeah. And I mean, you and I were talking about this before you know, we started recording this intro, but just how a lot of the stuff that he is saying Right now feels to really almost like, it’s like you’re going to get this like really hard massage. Like there’s just this not attended rain example. There’s this knot in the churches back and like Nik is one of those people who has just taken his elbow right to that knot. And I think it’s really incredible to see especially from like a creative vantage point, someone really pushing on those bruises and on those knots, you know, trying to work them out.

Justin Price
No doubt, you know, I think that one of the temptations when you are acting as a consultant to the church and you’re not necessarily leading your own congregation are leading your own creative team, like in Sunday morning. The temptation is like to maybe pull back into like, just give a nice soft massage, you know, to just make people feel good to just, you know, ease the pain just to touch. And I gotta say, I feel you know, I’m always skeptical when I’m getting ready to talk to anybody who’s a consultant because consultants also kind of a word for non committed. And as a creative consultant myself, there are days where I’m just super glad I am not all in with with the project I’m working on I know it will end. And the thing you know that can that can come from that is just a some people cannot have a very soft way of doing things or talking or looking things and I gotta say, like, for one reason, for better or for worse, I think it’s for better. I think God has really ordained Nik and his his using Nik to say some things to the church that I don’t know maybe if he was in the middle of a congregation today right now trying to lead in the midst of this as tired as the rest of us are. He might not have the challenger at full speed, you know, to be saying some of the things he’s saying right now, but at the end of this conversation, Nick drops a bomb that I think some of you Ready to hear I you know, I’m just I’m just preparing you. He’s dropping some heat. You know, he, Mike, you I think you had to take it took you a little while to recover from this conversation emotionally.

Mike Mage
It didn’t fully hit me in the moment until I went back and edited I was like, Oh, no. Because he says it was such calmness and but yeah, make sure you listen to this full interview because just like Justin said, I think we need to coined the phrase dropping heat, dropping a key, Nik drops some heat here. So, so buckle him. This is our conversation we had with creative church founder, Nik goodness.

We’re talking about the church down the road, and what they’re doing for Easter and what they’re doing for this and it’s like, Yeah, but like what’s God called us to do

Mike Mage
Well, welcome to the healthy church growth podcast. We are so glad that you have joined us for this episode. And this episode is, is really, really cool, really special. We are having a conversation with Nick Goodner, who started a little group called creative church and is a huge creative voice for churches right now. And, Nick, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast.

Nik Goodner
Thank you guys for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Mike Mage
So I just I have a pre question for you. And this I guess isn’t really really a question but I have been crushing on all of your content like a 90s girl over like Leonardo DiCaprio. It has been amazing. Thank you so much for everything that you’re doing right now just through Instagram and all your other stuff.

Nik Goodner
Yeah, well, thank you. I’m flattered I really am. You know, it’s It’s not every day you get that kind of compliment where you’re crushing like Leonardo DiCaprio, like Get 90 year old over Leonardo DiCaprio. So thank you for that. Now, now I’m embarrassed that I’m not gonna be able to do the entire podcast and I’m just gonna be, I’m just gonna be flustered the entire time.

Mike Mage
Yeah, that was the goal. My, my six year old so almost six year old son has been watching the Parent Trap, like the 90s version of the Parent Trap. And they’re all they talk about is Leonardo DiCaprio. So yeah, sorry.

Nik Goodner
So you gotta you gotta tell him there’s more movies than that. That’s what I have to let them know. You have to let them know there’s more movies.

Mike Mage
It’s so with the advent of Disney Plus, there is like this resurgence. I feel like of those, like 90s Disney Channel movies. And like, Yeah, he loves them. It’s so crazy. I don’t understand why. So you said when we were talking a little bit beforehand, and I’ve seen on some of your stuff that you grew up in Florida. And now you sort of moved in this position as sort of like a creative coach. I’d love to maybe just get like a real, real short version of how did you get to the position that you are in right now? Like, what’s a little bit of your background for our audience?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, so I grew up in Florida, and well, I grew up all over the South. My parents were church planters. And so we moved around a lot. A lot of people ask me, you know, whenever I tell him, I’ve moved like 32 times ago, were you in the army? I was so yes, the Lord’s army because we moved around a lot and you know, where the Spirit leads, so to speak. And so he grew up I grew up a parents are church planters. And then after I graduated high school, I decided I wanted to go to Bible college and kind of follow in their footsteps. And just outside of Bible college, I got a offer to go down to a church plant in Orlando. And I was born in Florida, born in Central Florida. I always loved Central Florida and I said Do you know why that why the heck not? Let’s go and I went down there. helped out for about almost eight months I met my wife there she was also she she and I both went to Bible college at the same time. We never knew each other Bible college, but we met each other at this church plant because the youth pastor who was or the student director over the Bible college was the one who went left to go start the church. So we met, we get married, and we moved back to Tulsa. That’s where we went to school at. And about three months after moving back to Tulsa, I get an offer at a church in bartlesville, which is about 35/45 minutes up north from Tulsa. And we haul up and we move up there and become a student minister, and then a creative director. And then the rug is kind of pulled out from underneath me and the church shuts down it closes and I was very passionate about what we were doing at that church. And so whenever it closed, it kind of shook me a little bit, because I could see the I could see the I could smell the blood in the Water. And you know, being growing up as a church planter, I can kind of tell where the or identify the markers of where things went wrong. And so I spent the six months after it closed, kind of beating myself up rehashing, like, here’s where we went wrong. Here’s what we should have done better. And finally, it just came to a point where I was like, I can’t sit here and do this for the rest of my life. We can’t lean on only I was only like, 21. At the time. I was like, we can’t let this define me. And I decided to start an Instagram account called the creative church. That was back when we had all the vowels in the name. And there’s always a fun, it’s always a fun story. About three months go by and I’m like, I want to start a website. And so I look up to buy the domain for the creative church. And it’s not available, someone else owns it. And I don’t even know if it’s still owned by them. But I go, what can we do and movement watches was getting real big at the time. And so I was like, we could take the vowels out of creative and call it creative church. And so I did that best branding decision I ever made, like ever made. And it comes because I couldn’t find the domain for the creative church. And we’ve been called a lot of people call CR TV church, it’s creative church, but I won’t fault him for that. So yeah, so we started that back in 2015. It’s been going now almost five years, it’ll be five years in October. And we’ve had our ups and downs and our evolutions throughout the entire time. And I feel like over the past two years, we’ve really gotten in a groove as to what we want to do what I want to do and who we want to be, and celebrating and inspiring and empowering church creatives to be creative every day. You know, that’s, that’s our goal. That’s our mission. We want to be Spirit led and healthy at the same time. So I love what you guys are doing because you guys big focus is health. And so I love I love what you’re doing with the podcast. So

Mike Mage
what one of the reasons I feel like I’m really drawn A lot of your stuff is, I think a lot of church creatives, really just creative people in general, we have a tendency to almost like think, want to think above people, and it almost like leads to like a pretentious nature to things. And I feel like you all of the content that you’re posting is so grounded. And I really really appreciate that. Because it I feel like it’s it’s stripping away the almost the inaccessibility of what it means to be creative in the church, you know, and I just saw, I don’t know if there’s a lot of people that are doing that. So I really, really appreciate that. You are a great designer, Nik. And it looks like you know, maybe you have some background in that. I don’t know if you went to school. What did you go to school for exactly in Tulsa.

Nik Goodner
I went to school for student ministry and kids ministry . I didn’t go to school for design. Actually, I never, never designed until I got my creative director gig at the, at the bartlesville. Church. That’s whenever I started lid lid, my wife, she was a graphic designer. And she’s the one who taught me how to do it. And I just fell in love with it became really passionate about it for about a year and a half started a business where I was doing it. And then I like some things in life. I’ve lost interest in it over the years. But I can still, I can still do it as a necessity. But I’m more into finding designers to fit the style nowadays and paying them to do it because it’s a younger man’s game. And even though I’m not 30 yet, I still feel old in design, like I feel like I’m archaic. And yet you see all these, you know, kids coming up that like 16, 17 years old and they’re just blowing me away. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, this is phenomenal. And I’m over here you know, still trying to figure out you know if I can use Gotham slanted or not, yeah. So so it’s kind of a it’s a main sent in for me a little bit. It’s something I’ve kind of lost interest in doing over the past few years but I still do it as a necessity because you know, working with a small team, you have to do your own design sometimes. So yeah,

Mike Mage
well i think that’s that’s a really good almost like a baseline for I feel like a lot of where our audience is, you know, these people who you know, maybe they start out as worship leaders, but then as they you know, start to go into their job you know, they realize oh, like the bulletin needs to be totally changed or like you know, these slides need to be totally like I need to learn a little bit of creative work or learn Photoshop or I need to learn you know, Illustrator a little bit more man this video needs to get done I need to learn premiere or Final Cut. So like what were what what are some of your like three resources for, I guess your creative inspiration or as you are getting going Even though you’re not really doing it as much, like how did you actually get your foot in the door, knowing that like, it almost was like you were being creative out of like a necessity, which is what I feel like a lot of churches are in.

Nik Goodner
Yeah, so, um, you know, not everyone’s gonna have Lydia but my wife was a huge inspiration for me, and in a great teacher for helping me do Photoshop those first few years. You know, because she was a graphic designer for like, three years before we met, and she did it all through high school, so she knew all the ins and outs and I didn’t and so she was a great teacher. She was number one resource. I can’t I can’t get away with saying that. Second, definitely YouTube. YouTube is is phenomenal. And if you don’t, if you don’t if you’re not watching a YouTube video once a week to learn something new that’s on you like you can learn anything with YouTube. And I yeah, I’m a fanatic about learning new stuff I love. I love to learn new ideas, new stuff and YouTube is that key Avenue. And then the last thing and this is this has been more so in the past few years for keeping relevant when my designs is Sunday social.tv from Joe and Jonathan Kaos are well, Jonathan mom Joe Kavaos and the thing that you can do with a PSD subscription and you can break down their designs. So you kind of learn by dissecting what it is they did how they did it, and that has been a huge asset for me. Yeah, over the past few years, as I’ve kind of phased out of doing design, being able to grab something from them and rework it for what I need. Is is massive as if you’re a designer starting out right now. I mean, get that PSD Sunday social subscription, because it’s going to benefit you in more ways than one, and you will be able to learn how they did it, and you’re gonna be able to learn, you know, how you can rework things to do things better. Sure. So those are my three big resources that I’ve used to kind of learn design and stay relevant in my designs.

Justin Price
I’m looking at it right now the Photoshop templates are 19 bucks a month, you can’t pay a graphic designer for an hour. That’s a that is an awesome resource to get, you know, church related set up PSD files and man talking about breaking down somebody else’s files and seeing how they structure a project is so eye opening, you know, you look, there’s 100 ways you can do something. There’s typically like 10 of those ways that are easier. And that that was a huge thing for me, Nick was when I was learning After Effects was buying template program like projects and breaking them down and like actually repurposing them for church stuff. But then you start to pick up like your Tips and your own styles and looks and things like that even in an after effects I in Photoshop. I mean, I remember man there was like graphic template, old old graphic templates sites that you know you’d buy, like for poster events and things like that back in my youth ministry days, we would we’d break those things open and I’d be like, I can’t believe how do these people even come up with this 15 years after of graphic designing later? You know, you’re like, Oh, yeah, this is all kind of makes sense. But man, just thinking about that template tip is so huge.

Mike Mage
Well, Nick, the the one of the coolest things that I think you’ve already sort of said is like, you know, design is, he said as a young man’s game, which I think is great. And I think that’s that’s accurate, to a certain extent, and you’ve instead of trying to figure out in spending more and more time on trying to like, figure out how to do that better. You pivoted yourself into building like a creative community and like leaning on other people, which I think is like such an incredible mindset and point of view that a lot of people don’t necessarily have, when it comes, especially when it comes to ministry, like sometimes, you know, our goal isn’t to do the work, it’s to equip other people to do the work. And so you’ve been building, like a creative community online for, you know, five years or so. What has been like the hardest lesson you’ve learned? And, you know, what tips can you share to those just now waking up and realizing that like, their community could be grown online in tandem with sort of the digital expansion of their physical communities?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, so the hardest lesson I learned, man, that’s uh, I there’s been a lot of hard lessons. You know, we’re a little bit unique in the fact that we operate like a church online. But yet at the same time, we’re operating like a business. And that balance and striking that balance because we don’t have people who donate to us or we don’t have people who give to us. We, you know, sell partnerships, we do events, things like that. Striking that balance has been very difficult for me, and to how do I, how do I give like a church? How do I operate like a church? And then how do I operate like a business at the same time? So that’s, that’s one of the challenges that has, I mean, that’s the one that comes up immediately. The second one is there’s a little bit of arrogance in running an online community like this, that you have to combat a little bit of ego, that you have to get the fight down. And, you know, throughout your time, running it, it has its ebbs and flows, where it’s like, oh, I’m fine, I’m good. And then it’s like, oh, it’s really it’s really bad. It’s, you know, I really feel egotistical right now and that’s typically plays out for me in a competitive spirit where I want to, you know, if someone comes up and they’re doing something similar, I want to figure out how we can just, you know, for lack of a better term, wipe them off the earth, let’s just let’s let’s become better than they ever can. And let’s let’s, you know, make sure that they don’t have a voice in this community. That’s something that I’ve wrestled with from day one. And that’s honestly our there. Because it’s, it’s, you know, whenever you’re doing what God’s called you to do, and you see someone doing something similar to what you’re doing. You can feel like they’re, they’re taking away from what you’ve created or what you’ve done. And you have to really look at it through a lens of the church down the road. It’s not my competition. God can call two completely different people to do two relatively common things, same things, and I think about Paul and Apollos Whenever he said, You know, I was planted, I watered, but it’s God who gives the increase. Yeah, and that’s kind of my my fallback verse for whenever I do get in those moments of, you know, I should be the one that has all the recognition or I should be the one that has all the, the views or whatever it is, or I should be the one that, you know, you know, is, is more quote unquote famous, but it’s really wrestling with that ego and settling it back down and remembering that, hey, other people can be called to do this, other people can be in this space, I can operate in this space, and we can all work together versus, you know, drawing lines and being divided. Because whenever we do work together, the kingdom of God grows and gets better. And that’s what’s important. And that’s the real mission and it’s not who gets the recognition. So yeah, so that’s one of this. That I’d have to say is probably the one that keeps reoccurring because I’m in a season right now where it’s like, I You know, everyone can do what they want, I’m all fine. And I know there’s gonna come a day whenever it’s gonna flare back up. And it’s it’s it’s been a constant struggle and constant wrestle. And I think it, it might have to do with, you know, the fact that whenever I started creative church, nobody else did something like this. And now we have about seven or eight people doing something like this. And so it’s kind of like, you know, the O G status that you want to maintain. But you got to realize that that’s not that’s not the kingdom. That’s not that’s not a thing. So you gotta go. You gotta let it go and move on. So yeah, yeah, that’s my, that competition thing has been something I’ve wrestled with. Yeah.

Justin Price
When you say doing this, what do you how do you describe? You said like creative church is like part church part business. What do you describe like this as? Is it simply the online community? Is it the I almost feel like you’re you have been inventing new revenues. streams within the whole thing. So, you know, how do you even define what is a competitor? What’s not? It’s, it’s, you know, for Mike and I, I actually think this is an excuse for us to hang out and to get to talk to people who are inspiring. You know, we haven’t we’re not smart enough to figure out a business model. I don’t know, you know, how do you describe it, Nik? Like is what is what is this.

Nik Goodner
In the business side of this, We are, you know, you have a demographic, which is church creatives. And you have a reach, which is what what you’re doing to influence church creatives. And whenever somebody comes in and wants to reach church creatives with the same type of content as you that’s what I start to define as a competitor. And that’s how to identify them as like a competitor. And what often happens is they’ll start small, and you’ll see them in Facebook groups, kind of trying to grow their their following In their business, and then as it as they get more and more than they become more structured, and then what you start noticing is they begin to replicate your actions five years ago, and you go, Okay, so there’s a little bit of experience that comes with it where sure I can, I can sit there and go, Oh, well, they’re doing exactly the same thing that I did five years ago. This is they obviously want to position themselves as a, as almost like a creative church competitor. And so that’s, that’s something that I’ve been able to identify, I think for whenever I’m looking at churches, I think it’s any church that moves in, down the road from you. Like, that’s the competitor that you’re always fighting. It’s the big church in town. For instance, I worked with a lot of church plants, and I don’t know how many meetings I was in, where we’re talking about the church down the road. And what they’re doing for Easter and what they’re doing for this and it’s like, Yeah, but like, what’s God called us to do? And why did they even like, yeah, they matter because they’re, they’re fulfilling a piece of the kingdom. But they don’t matter in this scenario, like they’re not like our decision shouldn’t be based off of what they’re thinking or what they’re doing. And that’s the, that’s the wrestle that I have to that I have to that I have to take with me into creative church. You know, whenever a new kid on the block comes up, I think to answer your question, actually, I want to go back I’m I messed up the podcast flow a little bit. But I wanted to answer your question. I did this think of something. And it actually doesn’t have to do with how God worked through me. But how God worked through someone else. Whenever I was first getting started. There was another church. It was church stage design. So it was Jonathan mall. And I don’t think he’s gonna, you know, be mad at me for sharing the story. I’ve complimented him several times. And whenever I was coming up, there was a moment there where he wrote a blog post, about how he sees these younger people coming up, and kind of filling the role that he used to have. And he’s now pivoting into something new. And he became kind of an inspiration for me with all this and with that, kind of, you know, driving that ego down. I constantly think back to that time. If someone else is coming up new and they’re doing it a little bit better than what you’ve done it as what you’ve done it, maybe it’s time for you to pivot and let them have the space that they’re in now, which is a very hard thing to do. I’m not, I’m not gonna paint that one as easy at all and then I’ll give you an off of that. I’ll give you the scenario. That happened here over the past year. We started out and it’s been ingrained in us to repost artists work and mix in our own content. Whenever we started, we were the only ones doing that on Instagram. There were websites and blogs that did it. But we were the ones doing it on Instagram. Nowadays, there’s at least four accounts who are doing it and they’re curating feeds that are way better than what I could curate at. And over the past year, I realized that we’re going to have to leave our space and doing this like we’ve done it for so long. It’s been a staple, but it’s time for us to go ahead and pivot to something new and allow them to flourish in this space because they’re doing it way better than I’m doing it. And I can give up the reposting and we’ll start doing creative coaching, consulting, and we’ll start doing the content and making that pivot has been a breath of fresh air for us. And it’s also I think, given the opportunity to these other companies, these other competitors to really flourish in their own space. So that’s that’s my that was my example to answer the question that we may or may not have cut out the podcast.

Mike Mage
No, we’re not. We’re not cutting that out.

Justin Price
Good. That was so good. There’s actually two things I want to revisit there. First of all, if you’re not learning something getting online with a Skillshare YouTube masterclass at least once a week learning something new, you are going to be passed up. And it’s not learning the new stuff that’s actually allowing you to adapt to change into find that new thing to be able to see where God is wanting you to go next. The second huge gut check was that that thing you said about sitting in meetings talking about the church down the road, whether you’re a startup, a church plant, a business mega church. We all have sat in those meetings where we have been talking about other churches worried about what they’re doing, thinking about what they’re doing getting frustrated if, if it was too close to what we were doing, and instead of focusing our energy and time on the thing that God called us uniquely to do at our church, I can’t reiterate how strong those two points were. I hope all the listeners grab on to that. Hold on to that. Thank you, Nik. Love, absolutely love so good.

Mike Mage
Now that you’ve been able to engage with creatives for a while, in this community, do you see a common denominator amongst creatives who are doing amazing work and growing in, you know, similarly healthy ways? Are you seeing a trend among other creatives who are doing like relatively so like these people that are coming up under you? what’s what’s sort of the trend, what’s sort of like these things that are sticking out about what they’re doing and also growing in a healthy way?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, so I think anytime there’s growth that’s actually sustainable, that we’re producing good fruit, there’s always good roots. So whenever I see something successful and getting past their first year and their second year, I always suspect that the people behind the scenes have really put an emphasis on their health and their self care, and their spiritual health and our spiritual well being, and keeping their sinner settling their calling. That’s a big one. Because we can oftentimes try to imitate other people’s callings that we like or that we see or we think, oh, we could do that. But settling that calling for yourself and saying, This is what God has called me to do. This is how I’m going to operate. And this is how I want to operate is really important, because there’s a other there’s the other token to that the other side of that is the ones that do it for about three months and that I never had hear from them again. And it’s often because they weren’t trying to be who they were called to be. They were trying to be who someone else was called to be. So whether it was me or whether it was someone else, they were trying to replicate or imitate that other person’s calling. And that’s, that’s always the To me, that’s always a center of burnout for people, is whenever you decide that, hey, I’m going to not settle what I’m called to do. Instead, I’m going to try to imitate what other people are called to do. Because I believe strongly that God gives you a grace for what you’ve been called to do. But he hasn’t given you that same grace to do, and other people have been called to do so whenever you’re feeling like on the edge of burnout. Now, I’m not saying this is the only symptom. There are definitely other or I’m not saying the only the only cause but there are definitely other causes. But for the most part, I can typically trace a creative burnout back to someone trying to do something that they’re not designed to do they’re not designed to do they don’t have the grace to do it.

So that’s the trend. The trend that I’m seeing is whenever you have growth, oftentimes you have those good roots, those healthy roots, and you’re able to produce that really good fruit and get past those 2-3-4-5 year marks.

Justin Price
I love that. I’ve never heard that phrase said that way. Specifically, the grace to do it. That’s cool. I don’t know if you got that coin Nik, but I love it.

Mike Mage
We’re gonna steal it will steal it. Yeah, that’s fine.

Nik Goodner
You can have it. I don’t know. You don’t have to steal it. You can have it. Thank you.

Mike Mage
Well, hey, just sort of like following up for you. Sort of about the because I do love I do love the idea that good fruit comes from good roots. Because I think that’s 100% accurate. People who do things in a sustainable way, are not in it for almost the results, it’s almost like because 95% 90% of the work is all like the grind of it all, you know, whatever you whatever work that you’re in, creative or not, and you love what you do you have a passion for what you do. It’s almost like you’re suffering for this, like 10% 15% or whatever, because like the rest of it is just like this slog almost. So like, What are you? What are some things that you’re doing to sort of keep up healthy and good routes?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, so let me start by telling you what I didn’t do, right. About year, two and a half and year three of creative church. I was in I think I was in a worse place than whenever I started creative church. I had really begun to distance myself distance myself from the community because there’s there’s this idea in leadership and I’m sure you guys have heard it and that is like as a leader You have to be distant from the people that you that you lead. Yep. And whenever I first started, I didn’t think that at all. And I guess I just listened to some teaching and I don’t know, I just felt like that was right for me like, Oh, I have to distance myself. So I became very isolated. So I wouldn’t talk to people in the community. I was, you know, kind of get that air of, again, that ego of, you know, I’m, I’m the leader, and you guys are the followers. And I have to, and I have to, you know, isolate myself from you guys. And so year two and three, to 2.5 to three was was very hard for me. Because as a young young leader, I was very arrogant to think that I could do this all by myself and have this kind of weird divide.

And that, we produce some really good stuff, and this is the this is always interesting to me. We really produce some really good results during that time. But the burnout for me at the end of year three was so apparent that I didn’t know whether I wanted to do creative church anymore. Like I was like, I’m done. I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to be a part of this. I’d really neglected any form of self care. I wasn’t, you know, developing myself spiritually. I wasn’t spending time, like I should read my Bible. It was, it was this again, it was this isolation factor. And coming into year four, I really, I took a kind of a sabbatical in which I took about three months off. And I you know, I didn’t do creative church for three months, we ran reposted content, and then we took a whole month off where we’re like, we’re not gonna say anything, we’re not gonna do anything per month. And during that time, I met with some people talked with some people got some, you know, some friendship counseling, not official counsel, but friendship. counseling. And I realized that the way I was doing things was completely. It just wasn’t me. Like I’m a person who if, you know, if I’m going to be the leader of the group, I want to know every single thing that the group is dealing with, like I want to be in the group like I don’t have this whole platform mindset. And I think that that was what was was killing me is because I was trying to put myself on a platform that I didn’t belong on. And again, that goes back to the whole grace thing. Grace for things you’re not you’re not called to do. And so coming into your four in this past year, I’ve really been focusing on developing myself care, getting with people hanging out with them doing zoom calls, this COVID-19 that we’re dealing with right now. It’s been huge because I can I’ve seen how we can connect with the people that are in our community through zoom calls through Skype calls and things like that. And we’re doing I’m doing More, to talk with him to meet with them. And it’s been a lot of, there’s a lot of life in that. And so the, the thing that you have to do in order to maintain good roots is, the first thing is always to make sure that you are surrounded by a community that lifts you up that brings you in that supports you. And then you have to maintain that spiritual aspect of yourself. I had a pastor growing up, he’d always say, the natural and the supernatural come together to make an explosive force for God. And that’s kind of the tension that we all have to live in as a Christian is there’s a supernatural side to what we’re doing naturally. And if we don’t curate this supernatural side, if we’re not growing in the supernatural side, what we’re going to wind up doing is burning out on the natural side. So it’s really a marriage of those two coming together to be that bold Christian or be that explosive force for God. So yeah, that’s it. That’s been my experience. That’s what I’ve taken away over the past, you know, five years of doing this.

Justin Price
That’s awesome. I’ve got a I’ve got no follow up on that.

Nik Goodner
That’s’s always good to hear

Mike Mage
he answered the question perfectly. That’s why.

Well, that’s that’s incredible. I think that, especially right now, if I mean, I, I shudder to think about if you were struggling with not us specifically, Nik, but you like General, somebody struggling with isolation, and then all of a sudden a worldwide pandemic hits. And, you know, it’s what a horrible time to start dealing with issues of isolation, whether self imposed or not, when we literally can’t see anybody right now outside of digitally. So I would imagine some creatives are going through that right now. What’s been a way for you, Nick, to sort of mitigate that to not feel so isolated And to continue on with like creative work what’s, what are some some best practices to sort of mitigate isolation right now?

Nik Goodner
Yeah.

Solving the isolation problem is always a two way street. You can have people reaching out. But if you’re not reaching back to other people, you’re not solving the isolation problem. So there is a give and take on both sides. So we can, you know, as a platform creative church can only do so much we can do zoom calls, we can reach out to people, we can text people. You know, we can comment on their feed, we can do things like that. But if someone has drawn into themselves, it’s very hard for them to solve their isolation problems. So the advice comes from both ways be reaching as a platform as a church be reaching out, be doing what you can zoom calls, opportunities for connection, okay? And even even don’t do mass calls do personal calls, I mean, do personal texts, things like that personal emails to connect with people. Don’t just rely on your mass calls because oftentimes, the really, I’m an introvert, that really introverts, the introverted people. I don’t want to be in a room of 100 people on a zoom call. I just don’t I have no desire to do that. Yeah. And that’s always a weird thing for people to hear whenever they’re like, Oh, well, you’re so you know, you’re so you’re so extroverted online. It’s like, Yeah, but that’s exhausting for me. Yeah. I don’t get any life from that. I am very exhausted at the end of that. But, uh, so you know, reaching out to people on that personal level and saying, Hey, man, just thinking about you. You know, what are you up to how you doing? So anything I can do for you things like that things that we’d normally say to reach out to people. And then if you’re on the other side, where it’s like I’m isolated. I i’m not i’m separated from everybody. You have to be able to self identify and say, Hey, I’m going to Do something about this isolation. So I’m going to take up those opportunities for connection. Whenever people text me or you know, I need to text them back, and things like that. So it’s really a two way street that we have to. We both sides, both parties have a responsibility that we have to get the exercise.

Justin Price
Yeah. Hey, Nick, recently on Instagram, you made a post that stated that you were on the innovation side of the creative spectrum. Remember that?

Nik Goodner
Yes.

Justin Price
And you were saying that it was great because it gives you an opportunity to say goodbye to some sacred cows. What are some sacred cows that you feel like as things go back to normal? That you would are specifically calling out?

Nik Goodner
Yes. So can I can I do you mind if I explain the the innovation adaptations for quick? Absolutely, yeah. So this is something I read in a book that I was again, this is one of the things I learned something new every week. I learned this I just picked up a book and I was reading I was like, Oh my god, this is this is interesting. There’s a guy named Michael curtain Creighton, and he’s a cognitive psychologist. And he authored a book in like 1970 ish. And he had a theory on creativity in which everyone is creative. First off, but you have a preferred style for your creativity. So there’s people who are highly adaptive. And then there’s people who are highly innovative. So your adaptors are people who are remixers they take something and they’ll remix it make something beautiful. They trust and pursue that status quo. They look for in rely on inspiration. And then they’re essential for growing organizations you want adapters in your organization’s to be there to run the systems that a pioneer is creating that comes from the innovation side, which is they want to be pioneering. They’re going to be constantly questioning the status quo. They’re gonna be overflowing with like new radical ideas. These are the people like you get around them. They’re like, Oh, we got a new idea. I got a new idea. Oh, got an idea, you’re like, slow down, slow down. We barely got up. This is this is what angers the adapters about the innovators because they’re like, we just we just got the first idea off the ground stop

Justin Price
You’re describing the exact conversation between our operations guy and myself.

Nik Goodner
You know the struggle because the innovators though they’re essential in times of change. So like the COVID-19 is bringing out some innovators right now. And they are thriving, like I’m thriving in this environment. Like we talked about couch Fest, either before the podcast or just beginning of this podcast. And it was stuff like that to just over filled me with joy to do because I felt like we had become a lot super stagnant. And here we’re able to take on these challenges. So we’re so innovators are always very critical in times of change, whereas adapters always flourish and kind of the status quo, maintaining Building. So that’s a innovation adapter spectrum and everyone kind of falls on that spectrum somewhere, I lean towards the innovator side, where I still kind of almost have a foot in that adapter side. And now that I’ve done that and got excited by explaining that, what was the question?

Bring it back around.

Justin Price
We’ll bring it back around. The question was being an innovator. What do you think some of the sacred cows are that we’ve got to let go of as a church?

Nik Goodner
Yes. Okay. Thank you.

First, sacred, first sacred cow and I’m gonna risk my life and career for this one. Do it is is the Sunday morning service. The idea that Sunday morning is the only time that we can gather as a church. The idea that Sunday is our Super Bowl.

I think that’s the first that’s that’s the first Creative, or that’s the first sacred cow.

Mike Mage
Just a small thing there.

Nik Goodner
It’s a small thing. It’s a little one. It’s so true. It’s a it’s a little in for some people. It really has become a sacred cow. Because whenever this started happening, and you know, the government suggested that we closed churches down, we don’t have gatherings of larger than 10 people. People got, I mean, watching the community on social media people got upset. Yeah, like you could tell this. Like, for me, I love online church, I go online church, you know, probably 50 75% of my time on online church. So for me, this wasn’t that big of a deal. But I could see for other people this was almost like ruining their lives. And I think we’ve we’ve held on to the idea that church has to happen on Sunday morning. That it has to that this is, this is this is the only way that we can do church is if we push everything into Sunday. Sunday’s are game day. And then from there, everything’s a ‘B’ program. I think what we’re going to see moving forward is a lot more churches saying, churches an all time thing, like we got to do this every day of the week. This isn’t just once a week thing. We can’t just come in here on a Sunday morning. We have to be doing things to connect people throughout our week and, whether that’s physical or digital, we have to be doing things to connect with people. Like we can’t just come on church on Sunday, and then, you know, throw out our sermon recap videos throughout the week and call that a week. We can’t we can’t do that anymore. We really have to be engaging with people and being with people every single day of the week. So that’s the first sacred cow. It’s a big one. And again, I’m risking my life, career and everything to to say it. I’m sure I’ll get feedback

Justin Price
Can we just camp on that for one second.

Nik Goodner
Yeah, sure.

Justin Price
What you’re describing though, is a problem that Businesses globally are adapting to now. And that is diversification. And anyone who’s got all of their work in one account is risking the health of their organization. I love that you’re describing something that’s actually really dangerous for churches to go back to.

Nik Goodner
Yeah. It is very dangerous. I like in this is a weird thing that people probably don’t know about me, but I like the stock market. And I like investing into companies. You probably don’t know that about me. I don’t really talk about it very much. I didn’t but you didn’t know a lot. Like I said, it’s, it’s very personal. Um, but I’m watching right now what’s happening. I’ve invested some into Darden. Darden is the collection of restaurant melons like olive garden and cheddar and that’s cheddars in this because I worked for Olive Garden for a few years whenever I was in like high school. And so I had investments there and then I put more investments in there. But like what’s happening right now with the Olive Garden is is really showing them that they Can’t go back to what the way things were, like whenever you think the Olive Garden you’re thinking, I’m going to go in there and sit down. And some of you are thinking, dude, that’s gross. Why is he talking about the olive garden?

Mike Mage
The, the real, OG

Nik Goodner
The real OG. and they don’t have I mean, the online ordering for that thing. I tried to order something last night because I call when Olive Garden. It’s income, like it’s it’s impossible to get what you want. And it’s it’s so many layers. It’s not like ordering off of doordash or Uber Eats, it is complicated. And for Darden what they’re experiencing right now as they their stock was at 120 before COVID-19. Their stock is now at like 68 trading at 68. What their what their what they’re seeing right now. Meanwhile, other restaurants in the same spectrum who are already had an online presence, their stocks going up. They’re trending upwards. What they’re seeing right now is we can’t go back to doing things the way that we used to Do them. And the way this idea of you know all we have to have everyone come to the restaurant in order to enjoy our food. We got to rethink how we can do that. And I think the churches in that same Olive Garden boat we are, we cannot depend on everyone coming to us anymore. And that honestly goes against what Jesus told us in the Great Commission, which is to go out to all the world, we’ve become very familiar with the come to us strategy, come to us, come to our event, come to our platform come to our church service. And we’re sitting in our buildings every week waiting for people to come to us versus going out and being interactive with them. And I think, if anything, that’s what COVID-19 is going to change in the heart of the church, and what’s going to make them realize is, oh, this is a very act of faith that we’re involved in. And if we’re going to have longevity and influence and relevance. 30 years from now, we’re going to have to get even more active in the lives of the people that we’re serving in the lives of our community. And that’s not just doing, you know, Park cleanup days that’s actually being on social media that’s actually creating content on a day to day basis. Versus making everyday like I said, game day on Sunday. So that’s the again, it’s, it’s, it’s really. I feel like it’s really breaking creatives. We knew this a long time ago. You talked to creative community, they knew it already. But it’s really breaking down the minds of the pastors a little bit and opening their eyes to Oh, now I get what you were saying, Oh, that makes sense. That’s why we need to be on social media. Okay, so yeah, I get what you mean about going live every day. I thought you were just joking. You know, I mean, you talk to creatives, and that’s what their pastors are saying right now. And it’s very, very clear that a lot of the pastors they weren’t I don’t think they were digging their heels like all we’re, you know, we got to do things this way. I think it was just like, there was no inconvenience for them to change and Change is always prompted by great inconvenience. So like whenever we’re like, that’s the breaking point of change, like, we’re not going to change if it’s really convenient to stay the same. But whenever it becomes inconvenient to say the same, we have to change. And that’s what a lot of pastors are realizing right now is, oh, it’s not convenient to stay the same anymore, which we have with the inconvenience has caused us to rethink our approach. And it’s really a blessing in disguise for how the church can continue into the future.

Mike Mage
Man, I totally agree with you. I think that this idea of the attraction, its attraction, I don’t mean that in like, you know, a negative sense to a certain degree, but like the idea that we need to build buildings, and we need to create services and experiences on one day a week, so that people will come to us. You’re right is like very antithetical to what Jesus called us to do. And that is go out into the green. So go out to where people are. And, you know, I was, we’ve been talking about this a little bit here at the church that I work at. But like, when you have people experiencing God more than just one day out of the more than just one hour out of the week, so there’s 168 hours out of the week, and you have 167 they are not connected to a community of faith, or to a life with God or whatever, you know, the average person is super busy. But yet, we’ll have these weeks, you know, when things were normal years ago, you know, these weeks throughout the summer, where we’d have our kids camp, and we’d have, you know, hundreds of volunteers on campus, and that’s going Monday through Friday, and then we get to our Saturday and Sunday services. And wow, wouldn’t you know, that, like our worship experience was actually so much higher, like the engagement was through the roof or, you know, we do our student camp and it’s the same thing. They’re going out on mission projects, and then they come back in You know, like they, they have their own worship experience too. But again, it’s involving everybody in the church, from kids to students to adults. And then when we get back like those are some of the best weekend’s we have in engagement for worship, because people are actively engaged in what God is doing throughout the week. So it’s almost like what you’re describing Nik is, like this flywheel effect of like this momentum. And you know, we come in whenever it is, or we experience God, but it only goes to like, encourage and build upon itself. Isn’t that kind of what you’re describing?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, yeah. It’s really getting everyone to become participants in what God is doing. Because the more we participate, the more buy in that we’re all going to have. And I think that, you know, making sure that because right now, the majority of the church doesn’t participate in the Sunday morning service. And that’s, I don’t need I don’t need data to tell me that I can go to any church in America. Know that, you know the majority of the people sitting in these pews, they’re just here to enjoy worship. Enjoy the speaking and then they’re going to go home. And yeah, that’s that’s a little bit of participation but I’m talking about actual serving in the church actual being a part of the church, the majority of the church isn’t, isn’t doing that. And we know what you and we all know here is that whenever you’re actively serving in the church, your buy in to what’s going on your relationship with God, it goes up because you’re actually participating in the work that he’s doing. You’re seeing that behind the scenes. And if you’re in a healthy church, it’s fueling you to be to develop spiritually if you’re an unhealthy church. It could be burning you out. But as long as you’re in a healthy church that serving is going to be something that cat is is is catalysts for your relationship with God. And I really get the participation factor for getting that church at getting the church. Everybody participating on a weekly basis is so, so important.

Justin Price
Nik, we want to be respectful of your time. But I would love to give you the opportunity to talk about another sacred cow if you’d like to, if you had another thing.

Nik Goodner
So the other sacred cow since I did one for pastors, I better do one for creatives.

Justin Price
Buckle up, Mike

Mike Mage
Yeah, sure.

Nik Goodner
Hold on everybody.

The other sacred cow is for creatives that I’m seeing is in this season. They’re finding it hard to relinquish creativity to everyone else. They’re kind of holding it as I’m the creative. You all aren’t creative. And the I think we’re talking about a little bit earlier how there’s kind of this stigmatism amongst creative that we kind of think above the people, right. There’s a little A lot of that going on, I think what the sacred cow for us creatives is, you know, the pastor that I’m serving, he isn’t my enemy. He can have creative thoughts and ideas, just like I can have creative thoughts and ideas. And that leads to better collaboration, because what I hear from a lot of creatives is they want to collaborate, but they want to collaborate with other creatives. And what I always go back and ask them when I’m talking to them is, what are you doing to collaborate with your pastor, your student minister, how are you collaborating on that level? Or are you just trying to collaborate with the big name creative right now because you want that recognition? Because there’s a there’s, you’re going to be a lot healthier. If you’re used to collaborating with the people that you’re serving with, versus trying to collaborate with somebody who’s making a name for themselves in the creative church space. It’s, it’s important that creatives during this time we have to remember That we are not the sole bearers of creativity, that God does not give us all the creative ideas for design for film for video, we are here, and God has placed us in this season in this time in this place, so that we can serve the people of our community and the people that are around us are going to have ideas that we’re going to be able to build off of and facilitate that are going to change the world for the lives of the communities or for the lives of the people in our communities. So that’s the sacred cow for creatives right now is relinquish some of that creative standing and understand that it is okay to collaborate with people who you deem not as creative as you.

Mike Mage
I don’t relate to that at all. It’s fine. Fine, no. You’re not talking about me, it’s fine. Everything’s fine.

Nik Goodner
I think I just risked my life and career on that one too.

Justin Price
Risky

Mike Mage
You’re so right though. It’s crazy like this. It feels like Right now is a it’s just a magnification of so much of what’s happening. And, or a polarization almost. And, you know, like in church work, you’re seeing who you’re seeing who’s worked, who works hard and who doesn’t work hard. Or you’re, you know, you’re seeing creatives really tried to be creative, but it almost feels like you’re trying to draw this line in the sand. And, you know, like, that’s not, that’s not that shouldn’t be our goal. Our goal should be to try and, you know, reach as many people as we can to, to connect as many people as we can, in whatever way that is successful. And, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s rising above that, and I think that you’re so right, because it’s just, and then again, you know, when we when we head back into church, we need to keep that same mindset of being able to work with our children’s person who literally wants to use clipart and you know, like in there Whatever their their Sunday morning, talk to their kids. And, you know, try and work with them and get good video content or whatever, there’s, there’s so many things that we can do better. And this whole experience of the pandemic and everything is really shining a giant, magnifying or light in a magnifying glass on all those problems. So you’re totally totally right,

Justin Price
Those two sacred cows, when you think about it, they could change for the creatives and for the churches, such an, a huge impact that they could have on the kingdom, and on the world, just letting go of those two things. Think about the kind of people whose ideas could be heard by creatives, if you would relinquish that thought that I can only work with really great creatives or they’re the only ones that have good ideas, the kind of impact that that kind of inclusiveness could make mixed with letting go of Sunday morning, as another sacred cow is, is really, really exciting for me as somebody who has Loves dreaming and thinking about the future, Nik, man, you’re the real deal Your heart is showing through in this. For anybody who’s wondering if creative church is just a show or a sales gimmick or something. It’s not Nik, what you’re throwing down is so inspiring. I hope that what what you’re saying in this message does stick and we’ll reach, you know, our friends, some of the church community, and will make an impact.

Mike Mage
Yeah, Nik, real quick before we let you go, where are some places people can get you or can connect with you?

Nik Goodner
Yeah, well, first, I just want to thank you guys for what you’re doing here. The Healthy church growth podcast. I believe what you guys are doing is phenomenal. Because in this season, and then the seasons that are going to follow, having healthy church growth is going to be is going to matter more than having explosive church growth. Because if you have explosive church growth and you do not have it healthily, what you’re going to wind up is burnout. You’re going to wind up with burning out other people, and you’re going to wind up with toxic environments. They were Spit people out and have have have these these people have a bad experience with the church. So what you guys are doing here with this podcast, I really appreciate it. And I thank you guys and I just didn’t want to champion you to keep doing what you’re doing and I’m so excited to see what you guys are gonna create next. Yeah, totally, uh, you know, You embarrassed me at the beginning of the end. So if you guys if you’re looking for me, the best place to find me is on Instagram, @NikGoodner.That’s me personally. Also Facebook, on Facebook a lot. And that’s just, you know, just search Nik Goodner, names all the same. And then if you’re looking for creative church, if you’re creative, who is isolated, they want to community someone that they can feel connected to someone that can encourage them, inspire them, empower them to be creative every day. You’re gonna fall in one of all creative church in @CRTVchurch. And that’s it. creators on Instagram at all the other platforms and then of course CRTVchurch.com. And then if you’re if you’re younger and you want to see some really awful tik toks no I’m joking.

Mike Mage
Let’s do it.

Nik Goodner
It’s Nik Goodner at a I don’t even know how Tik Tok works. Just searching a dinner and I’ll pop up. You know, I have 20 I this. Three days ago, I posted a video and I have 20,000 views. And I keep telling my like baby sister, like who’s 14 who’s been trying to get you know, all this recognition. I mean, like, yeah, you know, I’m famous on tik tok. Now, you know, being smug about it. But what I learned the secret to my tik toks are is if I’m not in them, they’re a lot funnier. So, yeah,

Mike Mage
there’s that ego thing kind of all back to it. That’s that’s, you learn how to come up with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, cool. Well, Nick, thank you. You so much this has been an absolute treat. like Justin said, Love your heart.

Nik Goodner
Thank you. Thank you guys for what you’re doing. I appreciate you having me on. And I look forward to you know, getting to know you guys more.

Justin Price
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Nik.

Holy smokes Mike. I don’t think anyone could argue what an encouraging word that was from from Nick, that we can definitely pull creative ideas from everywhere from everybody’s got good, valid things to add to bring to the table. Yeah. That you know, I love. I’d love a phone call from anybody who feels like that’s not a valid sacred cow. Sure, but I’m curious for you. Who has to plan worship for Sunday morning this week? Yeah. morial Day weekend. does not get a four day weekend, right or three How did you feel about that statement? I mean, he just kind of ease right into it. He did.

Mike Mage
Yeah, he’s smooth talk to us right into saying, Hey, I mean, you heard his voice. that dude’s got a voice on him. And yeah, yeah, so he’s just dropping that bomb so easily. And yeah, it took me a while to really like sit with that. And I, the more I started thinking about it, the crazier it is. But honestly, the more right he is, and I just I really do think that there’s something to the idea that people need to experience the church more than just on one hour a week. And you know, the math is simple, like there’s 168 hours in a week. And if people go 167 hours without hearing from the church once and then they pick it back up for one hour out of the week. I mean, like it’s, it’s going to not be as good as it could be. If they were able, in some way, shape or form to experience the kingdom of God throughout the week, and and I think, you know, moving past that to it doesn’t need to be programming. I think it like, I mean, you know, you worked at a church, like churches love programming, they love it. And like what do we do there? Mike? Yeah, it’s events and it’s classes and it’s, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I, honestly I don’t know. And like, again, you know, it’s weird too, because people’s jobs are tied into programming, you know? And so what happens when all that programming goes away? And you know, how do I do my job then? Because it’s not it’s not a calling anymore. It’s a job. And so how do i do my job now? And so I think those are the type of questions that people really do need to be asking.

Justin Price
It’s gonna be really tough, I think for people to process forward. And I’m super excited. I think as I can Unity for creatives to come together and try to figure it out together, I think if one church had to try to just figure it out, and then tell everybody else how to do it, I think that’s not a great recipe for what the world needs moving forward. I do think, though, that there is a lot to uncover about even how we measure success. You know, I mean, Jesus, like we all measure the success of our church based on the amount of donations we get, and the number of butts in the seats, or even views on the online church. It’s like, but that doesn’t measure discipleship that’s happening like daily. Yeah, well, even if we’re like, well, these people are engaged in small groups. But that doesn’t really measure discipleship, but you could, through digital devices, measure engagement by people who are checking in getting resources on a daily basis, you could definitely check, right, your social media engagement. I think some closed groups certainly could be better utilized from some church congregations for people Unity sake, even like groups like, this is a needs based like I don’t do you guys have that a bay hope like, here’s something that we like I’ve got a need I can go on Facebook and a private group of gay hope people and I can put that do you have that?

Mike Mage
yep yeah we have we have a cool we have a moms mentoring moms group we have a a just recently we started because we haven’t seen a worship team at all, you know, we invited everybody who’s on a worship team into our Facebook group and like, you know, like that’s a point of engagement that we have now that’s like even better than we had pre COVID because like that people are on there interacting. But it’s, it’s closed. It’s not for like worldwide consumption. We’re not trying to market stuff like we’re right. We’re only doing it because we know that people we need to connect with people and people need to connect with Jesus

Justin Price
in those groups just from a like a marketing standpoint. those groups Are are great because they do notify you really well. Yeah, and there’s all those groups. So like it’s it’s harder to miss something. And when it’s like your friends, these are the people that you’re used to being on stage with. They’re talking, you want to jump onto Facebook for that I don’t really want to jump onto Facebook for a whole lot, but that either would jump onto Facebook. There’s a lot for us to learn. I feel like we just kind of ripped off the bandaid on something that maybe a lot of people haven’t really considered. I think a lot of people are still like, well, maybe there’s just a you know, eventually we’ll be able to get back to how it was. Yeah, yeah, this week has been nothing but talk of new normal. I feel every single conversation I don’t know who who’s starting that but good job, whoever is getting that going. Because it’s it’s very relevant. And yeah, and definitely a good way to describe it. So we’ll be talking about the new normal a lot here and cannot wait for you all to to hear the rest of the the conversations that have been happening. They get released every other week. Right here. If you are not subscribed, now is the time. Mike, tell them how they can subscribe. Oh, yeah,

Mike Mage
you can subscribe anywhere that you find your podcast. So Apple podcast, Spotify, I’m sure that there’s plenty of other places, but those are that’s the majority where people are listening. And you can also go to our website, healthy church growth.org. And you can also find us on Instagram and Facebook, make sure to go there. Check out all the content that we’re posting. I’m trying to be on there a lot more, wanting to have conversations with you as much as possible. So, next podcast, Justin and I just recorded an interview with the experienced director at bay hope church, Melissa Minor, who just happens to be my sister. And we are talking a lot about what is it going to look like when churches do reopen eventually, and it’s an incredible conversation, one that I think more and more of you are going to be having.

Thanks again for listening to the Healthy Church Growth Podcast where we believe that healthy things grow and growth means life.